Curse

nembool · Jul 11, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

I'm certain people would have thrown fits if ursan groups were rank capped.

I think I see what you're getting at, but since when does the existence (or non-existence) of a rank cap on a (now-nerfed) PvE skill have anything to do with the current state of PvP?

Although, there was rank discrimination during the Ursan days in the same way there is rank discrimination in HA, so maybe a rank cap on Ursan might have worked. That, however, is for another thread to muse...

Sniper22 · Jul 11, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

People just aren't making the endgame transition to PvP, as was originally envisioned in those early Jeff Strain interviews.

What do you think kept players from making the transition into becoming regular PvP players? Why is the PvP population so abysmally small compared to the masses of people happily grinding their way through PvE.

Anet burned that "bridge" down long ago when the separated the game into pve/pvp skills. PvEers want things to be easy as possible, which isn't the case in pvp.

PvEers are also never taught how to pvp. They think healing hands wammos are good and running superior fire magic runes on characters with 60 AL will make them stronger. They also don't know any tactics and strategy that most experienced pvp players know.

Anet needs to think of a way of help the noobs learn how to competitively pvp.

upier · Jul 11, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

PvE never prepared players for the game. PvE prepared players for the PvE game.
Which means that the players that completed PvE, couldn't really move on to PvP. They had to start over in PvP.

GW is basically two games for the price of one.

Lopezus · Jul 11, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Well the biggest failure was that A.Net never did a good job providing enjoyable PvP for the masses.

The percentage of players who have no desire to ever do anything PvP related under any circumstances is fairly small; but the sorts of PvP that most players want is very accessible, requires minimal organization, allows some amount of contribution regardless of skill level, and provides rewards. Guild Wars did not do a particularly good job at this - instead most of the PvP development effort went into GvG and HA, which are very inaccessible, requires a lot of organization, leaves weaker players as liabilities, and is unrewarding for all but the most successful players. That sort of design splits your community hard, and that's exactly what happened.

Splitting your community is terrible, since the player base bleeds between PvP and PvE in a variety of ratios, and the more it bleeds the wider the audience for your game is. That Guild Wars eventually split the PvE and PvP explicitly is a testament in just how hard they failed in that arena.

Totally agree, saying that all pvers don't want any form of competitive gameplay is wrong, it's just that current pvp is perceived by many as to be too competitive. Not only learning curve is steep, as Avarre pointed out but also pvp as a way to perfection is often a bit too much ie:

Quote:

without putting in the requisite 'work' involved. The people who actually want to PvP will do several things:
1. Put in the hours
2. Form connections (this is the hardest part, namely because if you suck no one will want to play with you, and a lot of players have difficulty accepting this)
3. Be critical of your own performance and improve yourself (a lot of players will not do this either ie. wahh stop criticizing my build i'm a unique snowflake)
As I said in the previous paragraph, the group-nature of Guild Wars forces it so that people have to go through steps 1 and 2. It's difficult, it's a bitch, and it's not all that fun, particularly when you start to PvP when the game's been out awhile. But you either really want to be involved in competitive play or you don't.

.
But i prefer something like that :

Quote:

If you want a transition, you need to have very accessible, voluntary, and well supported world PvP, that players can simply drop into and contribute. You need to pair that with a slight step up to random team-based scenarios, ala Alliance Battles / Battlegrounds, that people can pick up and play but also introduce the team and organization elements as well. The entire PvP-pyramid, Arenas and HA and GvG and whatever else you want needs to be built upon that base of accessible, casual PvP.

Exactly, PvP where even mistakes can happen without ruining your and others players experience, when playing for 30 minutes daily is rewarding and fun, even when you are tired after work and can't achive perfect way of concentration and coordination. Sure many will say that if someone's looking for that kind of experience GW isn't that kind of game and GW2 shouldn't be it either, but i think otherwise.

Ensign · Jul 11, 2009, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

From the sound of it, there will be many types of scenarios in the world pvp. This would be a very accessable way to train people for the different full fledged pvp game types. Not to mention world vs world will encourage people banding together and forming friendships, which can lead to more pvp guilds.

Well I don't think the role of it is training; at least not any more than storyline PvE is training for DoA. For most players, world PvP and battlegrounds are probably the extent of their foray into PvP; and that's ok. Most of your players don't want to be any more serious about their PvP than they are about PvE. The more important part is what you mentioned at the end; meeting people and forming friendships, creating opportunities for players who want to go further and be more competitive to do so.

Grj · Jul 11, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

PvE/PvP player's refuse/do not want to play PvE with others, what makes you think they want to play together in a competative environment?

When a player plays low-level PvP all the reason's people don't PvE together rear it ugly head:

The waiting times to form groups is pathetic.

If and when you do get a group,any tiny mistake causes people to rage/start arguements/quit the game.

The whole ego thing that infests this game, everybody around me is an noob, i can do no wrong, even when i completely screw up i still push the blame onto others.

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

GW need a "pub DOTA" version of GvG opposed to only "League Match DOTA" GvG.

How to do it?

Dunno. I'm not working in game design.

Wont it be plagued with leavers and griefers like DOTA pubs?

Probably. Anet problem to solve.

Nerel · Jul 11, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Wow, some good and insightful posts made by so many people. Thank you.

As a few people have stated, GW2's World vs World PvP might just be the change in PvP style/format that is needed to make PvP more accessible to the masses of players who, quite naturally, start in PvE but eventually start to tire of the game and want something more competetive. But, like all things GW2 related, we have so little information about it, it's far too early to tell.

Assuming the more structured PvP is still the mainstay of the game, particularly if Heroes Ascent / HoH is pretty much as it is now, do you think having tiers would help? Having districts only available to people of a certain rank or lower, say 0-3, 4-6, 7+, and players forming a team from those districts will only be facing similarly ranked opponents.
This way lower ranked players will be able to get a group, and to a lesser extent the experience needed, they still have the option of playing in a higher ranked game, assuming they can find a group willing to take them.
The only down sides I see are that they will miss out on playing against far higher ranked (and presumably much more skilled) players, losing is a learning experience after all. Also the possible fragmentation of the player base, not that I think that would be a problem given how entrenched rank discrimination is.

Or, as has been mentioned by more than a few astute Gurus, that some intermediary form of PvP needs to exist between the 4v4 RA/TA arenas and the big boys 8v8 in HA?

edit: Just a quick note for the people who have said that some people just like PvE and have no interest in stepping up to the more competitive game play PvP offers... Sure, this is true for some players, many even... but I think a surprisingly large number of the current PvE player base (those who rarely venture beyond AB/JQ/FA) do want more from the game, but find the entry obstacles for PvP too high.

ajc2123 · Jul 11, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

I always enjoyed the story version of games as opposed to competitive play. Granted I DO PvP now, but until AB was introduced I never touched the thing.

One other reason I didn't PvP (and used henchman) was because this is a party oriented game and I was afraid I wouldn't be pulling my weight. I didn't wanna go and ruin someone else s game because of my lack of knowledge.

But that's when I used to care about other individuals...then I found the interwebs....gg.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jul 11, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

HA is not as serious as you guys are making it out to be, join a guild and play regularly, you'll get a deer pretty quickly.

A 6v6 PvP mode would be nice though...

Short · Jul 11, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scormus

I disagree with your supposition the GW was a PvP game with PvE introduction. Certainly the marketing material and reviews didn't present this view of the game, nor does my anecdotal experience.

Superstition? In Prophecies, whilst I didn't play back then, it was definitely a PvE intro, Arkantos' evidence in the first post about the Desert Missions is proof enough and the lack of endgame stuff is also true. Basically, what Arkantos said. Superstition? Nah.

nitetime · Jul 11, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I can tell you why I never crossed the bridge to pvp. It's because I can plow thru mobs in pve hm with one hand while scratchin my balls with the other and hardcore pvp takes two hands and scratchin my balls is more important to me.

Need More Donuts · Jul 11, 2009, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by king_trouble

Gold = rare items = farming = showing off

Don't think I could've said it better myself most people in games like to show off their uber moniez just like many people in real life.....

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 11, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Need More Donuts

Don't think I could've said it better myself most people in games like to show off their uber moniez just like many people in real life.....

Materialism FTW? WTB more friends? WTS Personality for bling!

TheodenKing · Jul 11, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

If PvPers realized that elitism and bullying the nubs only hurt their own interests, they might see more people in pvp.

I'm not suggesting that r7+ HA teams should be taking nubs on their teams. But the taunting and flaming and stuck up attitudes so prevelant in-game and in forums is the biggest reason you don't see more crossover. There needs to be a teaching mechanism. I believe anet has provided that. But too many players would rather pummel the inexperienced and call them names.

PvP is, for the most part, a very hostile and unfriendly environment for inexperienced pvpers. And keep in mind, some of these inexperienced pvper are very good pve players. They shouldn't be treated like idiots. Wake up and see the potential, and point them in the right direction rather than ridiculing them. You just might find your pvp world become more fun when you actually have better competition.

Saphrium · Jul 11, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

pvp and pve skill requirements differs significantly.

I usually sweat pretty good after a good gvg, and I fell asleep during HM elite areas, if Anet gives out SDKs I can write a bot to do pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

If PvPers realized that elitism and bullying the nubs only hurt their own interests, they might see more people in pvp.

I'm not suggesting that r7+ HA teams should be taking nubs on their teams. But the taunting and flaming and stuck up attitudes so prevelant in-game and in forums is the biggest reason you don't see more crossover. There needs to be a teaching mechanism. I believe anet has provided that. But too many players would rather pummel the inexperienced and call them names.

PvP is, for the most part, a very hostile and unfriendly environment for inexperienced pvpers. And keep in mind, some of these inexperienced pvper are very good pve players. They shouldn't be treated like idiots. Wake up and see the potential, and point them in the right direction rather than ridiculing them. You just might find your pvp world become more fun when you actually have better competition.

you are right to a certain degree, but walking the inside track of pvp, you will see most of the hostile pvp players are title hunters, fame farmers, faction farmers, etc. They don't represent the other side of pvp community, friendly, knowledgeable(not pvxwiki knowledgeable, but really know the game inside out), and helpful.

Sometimes it is hard for pvpers to teach a pve player. Because we know not everyone has an open mind and a learning attitude. Pvp is a very dynamic environment, a skill should be used then doesn't mean it will work now, many pvp transitions failed upon this vital part, and took the educated critique personally and gave up.

Giving a few examples, you can get yelled for different reasons.

"Shatter enchant!"
"OK!"

"Don't shatter!"
"Wha?"
"Don't Shatter!"
"It is a freaking RoF cover, stop shattering crap!"

"Diversion the monk!"
"OK!"
"No the other monk!"
"Why would you divert a bonder!"

"heal me"
"ugh..."
"monk i need heals!"
"OK!"
"how the hell did you die?"
"i had backfire on me"
"then don't heal me!!! why you die!?"

Cluebag · Jul 11, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Just some feedback about why I personally never went beyond dabbling in pvp over the 4 years I've been playing.

One of the main reasons for my limited participation in serious pvp is that I'm not interested in leaving the guild of good friends I've made to join a more pvp focused guild. I realize everyone's guild experiences aren't the same, but mine is a bit like an extended family. We interact outside of gw both online and in real life. We're fairly casual, and mostly all working adults with families and such, and we spend our time on GW relaxing and laughing and otherwise winding down from the stresses from our day jobs. GW isn't a second job for us, it's a game.

The way the game is currently set up, we're limited in setting up networks to achieve our individual goals. We have our guilds, our alliance (guild extension) and our friends list. Let's compare this to real life, just for the sake of expounding theories and brainstorming and exploring common themes and all that shit. I have my family, my wife's family, my friends, my wife's friends, friends of friends, my work colleagues (both coworkers and contract workers, etc), my wife's colleagues, the professional orginizations I belong to, other social groups I particpate in, etc, etc, the list goes on. Now some individuals fall into multiple categories, some are limited to a single category. I'll typically rely on a particular group for a specific utility. Sometimes I can get people from other groups to perform in a capacity I wouldn't have originally associated them within. This is how we get shit done irl.

I guess the bottom line is, there are a lot more networking opportunities available to us irl (lol, durrr

) and given the limitations in-game with networking, a lot of opportunities for socializing with people with common objectives are missed. It'd be nice if, in-game, I'd be allowed to have my guild, my colleagues, and my other associations and clubs that I could take part in based on my own particular interests. An in-game provision to set up sub-groups for the sake of expanding our networks I think would go a long way towards building communities and breaking down the walls that are currently inhibiting our ability to socialize normally/properly.

I realize that the long view here could result in an apocalyptic transformation of this game into a mutant facebook of some sort. However, I think that given this game is a MMO of sorts, where people are actually socializing online, by giving the people more and better opportunities to interact and make friends and ultimately have fun and buy more copies of the game, this aspect is worth consideration. The goal here would be to explore avenues to bring people with different playstyles and gaming interests together, not drive them further apart.

I'm not suggesting that this alone is the magic bullet. I agree with the sentiments presented about having a more approachable middle tier of pvp, bridging the gap between pve and high end pvp. My fear is that this world pvp would quickly be relegated to the non-serious low end pvp spectrum, and the cycle will repeat itself. From my own speculations as to how it will work, I think it sounds fun, if it is how I am imagining it is going to be. Regardless of what Anet brings to the table with GW2, the community at large will always be the liability here, and unless there are ways to improve the community, we're destined to repeat the same patterns.

Trub · Jul 11, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

I guess the real reason plenty of new pvp players never get anywhere is because they are unable to find a support guild to get them into pvp,

That in itself is a big problem with a game over 4 years old.
Most 'good' PvP guilds that still exist, (didn't implode on themselves) and are indeed recruiting...aren't looking for new players to train.
There was one guild out there that actually comes to mind...it was a smurf of a fairly decent pvp guild back in the day..[kisu].
Look them up (if they live)...they used to recruit players that showed a willingness to learn, and listen closely.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 11, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

I hope this feature that will be in Guild Wars 2 will help close the gap between PVE/PVP:

"World PvP will allow you to play characters of any level, using the skills that you have in your possession at that particular time. It is intended to be a more relaxed bridging point between PvE and structured PvP. It will be on a larger scale than the original Guild Wars PvP with large battles which could take place over a long period with people coming and going.

Each battle will have a number of different objectives which can be met such as taking guard towers or defending choke points or joining a larger battle to take a castle. Battles will take place in the Mists.

Victory in World PvP will confer benefits to your world. This may include improved drop rates, better energy regeneration or other bonuses."

What are the chances for PvP only guilds to ruin World PvP for everyone else? And the whole benefits shit sounds exactly like the idiotic favour and faction system, you know, where you can not buy stuff because the wrong group owns the town! Both a major annoyance.

Laraja · Jul 11, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I was a hardcore PvE player who decided to play PvP. I would like to play PvP more but the attitudes and grief from other players really ruin it for me and make that part of the game a chore, although there are rare times when everyone appears to get along. I turn off local chat during any PvP game, it's the only way I can stomach playing and yes, that is sad.

I believe I am not the only one put off by the abuse at the lower levels of PvP. It probably gets better in the upper levels, but maybe not. So, just saying, the people who can't hold their tongue and their tempers are probably chasing off a large number of potential PvP players. You might say you're better off without the people who can't take the abuse, but really you don't know. I get frustrated too at this game but I've never ever ever verbally abused someone. If it gets to that point, then as far as I'm concerned, it's time to take a break and do something else.

I want to add that the grief is almost never directed my way, but bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship, and it effects the entire team and overall tone of the game. Some people don't mind it, some find it amusing, but being a mellow person, I like to avoid situations where people are prone to freak out and get verbally abusive. I don't put up with it in real life, I'm certainly not going to put up with it in a game.